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Monday, November 21, 2005

Strangers on a Train

Nathanael at The Rhine River tells of a conversation with a French Muslim:

As the train passed through Bar le Duc, he admitted to me that he rarely has conversations with non-Muslims that are so fulfilling. I laughed: our conversation had stretched my conversational abilities to the breaking point, and I made many grammatical mistakes because of fatigue. That was not what he meant. Few Frenchmen paid as much attention to what he had to say. He talked about how he felt about being a French Muslim, born in country but not taken seriously. Unable to talk directly to his experiences, I tried to talk about minority experiences in America. I knew I was not communicating directly to his concerns. I imagined his predicament in American terms. As I equated things that made sense to me about integration and advancement, I hit a nerve. 'More education!?' he said. I wasn't sure what had given him a shock. 'Why should I have more education? I move on to the next level, studying more, because the degrees I have earned don't help me to get a job. I look forward only to more education.' He had no faith that an employer would give him the chance to practice what he studied (he tried hard to find a job) so he continued to study. This chance meeting was not unique. I've had it many times in France and Germany: a conversation with an enthusiastic Muslim or African who is surprised that someone will pay attention. Listening to them, I find that they are enthusiastic about their European homeland (adopted or natal.) They are culturally aware, exhibiting (what I consider) good social practices for their milieu. Yet they remain outsiders. I have also asked Frenchmen and Germans about Muslims and Africans: 'Why are people who seem assimilated not accepted?' The question can turn a conversation on its end, turning transnational discourse into national defense.
I have mentioned before that part, perhaps the biggest part, of the French riots was the result of French unwillingness to accept anyone else as 'French.' This is another good piece of anecdotal evidence of the problem. I don't doubt that their is an unwillingness to assimilate on the part of some, perhaps even most, of the Muslims in France. Clearly it is connected to their Religion to some degree, and from what I have read the treatment of women in the French suburbs is only marginally better than the treatment of women in Taliban Afghanistan. That is a problem, and something that French authorities should have addressed long ago. That being said, it is probably unfortunate that the unrest in France is happening during the war on terror. While there are a few similarities, they probably work to obscure the problems in France more than to illuminate them. (via Instapundit)

5 Comments:

Blogger The probligo said...

"I don't doubt that their is an unwillingness to assimilate on the part of some, perhaps even most, of the Muslims in France."

Dave, if you were to emigrate to NZ, would you expect to leave behind your family traditions of Halloween and Thanksgiving? Would you wear a floppy instead of a peaked cap? And how about substituting pork for turkey at Thanksgiving? Would it make any difference to you if the NZ government made your traditions and dress illegal? Maori is an official language of this country. Would you be happy being required (forced) to stop speaking American and to speak Maori instead, exclusively? How is about if we were to proscribe the religion that you followed? Happy?

The fortunate thing is, that if you should choose NZ instead of France, you could retain all of your home traditions if you wished at least as long as they are not in breach of NZ law (gunfights in the corral would not be possible :D ). Fortunately too English is an official language. And, to be honest, we do require intending immigrants to have better than passing knowledge of English. But, at the same time, we do not make it illegal to speak in another language. The government will even provide an interpreter for you in Court if you can only speak American and not English.

But then, France is the only nation to have undertaken a terrorist attack in NZ.

11/21/2005 12:28:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Justus said...

If I were to emigrate to a country that didn't speak English I would certainly plan on learning the language.

I would also participate in the politcal and culteral life of my adopted country.

Keeping one's culteral traditions, to an extent, is not the same as not assimilating. There is also the case where 'culteral traditions' is an excuse for behavior that is simply wrong.

Of course your examples apply neither to New Zealand or to France. No one is saying Muslim immigrants to France shouldn't remain Muslim. No one is saying they can't speak their native language, although I certainly think they should know French (and a good many do.) I assume, although I can't be sure, that France provides interpreters to those who don't need it.

What about not wanting to associate with French people though? Wanting to just keep to one's own ethnic group? Not considering the Government of France their Government? Not wanting to be part of France? That is not the proper attitude for an immigrant to take.

As I have clearly stated, this isn't a one way street, and the French have been as guilty of promoting this attitude (perhaps more guilty) as the immigrants. That doesn't change the fact that the immigrants don't want assimilation.

By most accounts, the riots were not a plea for greater acceptance by French society, they were a demand that they be left alone in their ghettos. Exept for public assistance money of course.

11/21/2005 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Justus said...

I am not sure what France's bombing of the Rainbow Warrior has to do with this post.

11/21/2005 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger The probligo said...

"Of course your examples apply neither to New Zealand or to France. No one is saying Muslim immigrants to France shouldn't remain Muslim. "

No? Why then are there legal/statutory proscriptions on dress in France?

"What about not wanting to associate with French people though? Wanting to just keep to one's own ethnic group?"

Yes, the Chinese are the same in Howick. We allow them and they choose to become citizens. Because our law permits it we now have an annual festival centred on the Lunar New Year. We also have similar participation by the non-Hindu community in the celebration of Dharwali. A Jew wishing to observe Passover can arrange with his employer to meet the various religious observations without penalty or persecution, as can a Muslim and his observance of Ramadan, or a Catholic who wishes to strictly observe Lent. I think that you will find that French law is far more proscriptive of religious celebration. I think you will find the average Frenchman far less tolerant of the differences.

"the French have been as guilty of promoting this attitude (perhaps more guilty) as the immigrants. " I would say "far more guilty" myself. The Moslem in the original story shows a forebearance that most Frenchmen would find impossible.

"That doesn't change the fact that the immigrants don't want assimilation."

Would you want to be part of a society which denies you the vote? Would you want to be part of a society that denies you citizenship? Would you want to be part of a society that denies you both work and social security because you are not a citizen?

To explain.

A person from Tahiti has absolute right to migrate to France. He does so and takes with him his Tahitian/French citizenship. Because French is the business language of Tahiti, he speaks fluent French. If he then marries and has a child, his child holds Tahitian/French citizenship. He also speaks fluent French. He is taught in French schools. Twenty years later the child is still living in France. He can not hold French citizenship. He votes for representatives in and from Tahiti because of his citizenship. He can only claim social security from the Tahitian government. Because he does not hold French citizenship, he will find it difficult to get work in France...

Given those circumstances, do you wonder why he might wish "not to assimilate".


And the little jibe about Rainbow Warrior? Just to show that the Arabs do not have THAT on their own. Just to make the point that terrorism is not just the product of alQaeda. And mostly to make the point that if France treats its colonial population the way [that I am told] they do then the old hoe about "feasting at the table of consequences" certainly rings true.

11/21/2005 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger Dave Justus said...

The French law you are referring to does not make it illegal to wear certain forms of dress in general, it makes it illegal to wear religious symbols (including headscarves) in public schools. I disaprove of that law, but it isn't quite as draconian as you make it sound.

I have consistantly, even before the riots, claimed that the French had a major problem in accepting their immigrants. That is undeniable. Their unwillingness to let them be 'french' is a major factor in this problem.

For the most part though, the Muslim immigrants have been okay with that situation. French unwillingness to accept, and immigrant unwillingness to integrate have fed one another. It is a problem, and no simple solutions will solve it.

11/22/2005 07:26:00 AM  

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